Re: PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600


Dale Ghent
 

Binning on CMOS is doesn't work how binning on CCDs does. CMOS binning happens in software, after the sensor is completely read out, because each pixel has its own ADC, and each ADC will have its own noise characteristics. It's how CMOS chips read out so fast compared to the line by line lumbering of a CCD. This post-readout binning is also why it's actually kind of pointless to do binning "in the camera" with CMOS chips as you can get the same effect by binning in post-product, such as by using PixInsight's IntegerResample process. You get the same results, but you're just changing where in the journey the data is being binned.

The Sony IMX455 sensor that both of these cameras (ASI6200, QHY600) have does sport a binning function in the sensor's own firmware, however it's not utilized by QHY in their model, at least, because of inconsistent results with it and they found better results using the existing binning functions in their driver instead. I imagine ZWO would be doing something similar in their analog, or at least in their camera firmware instead of the SDK. Besides, binning here is to make the image dimensions smaller, not to make download speeds quicker (which are already quite fast when using a native camera driver.)

As for the use of bitmaps - every image, either from a sensor or from a file off your hard drive, ends up as a bitmap in some way, shape or form when processed for display or conversion. No, bitmaps are not just a certain file format with a .BMP extension. Bitmaps are everywhere in every process, as they are just a 2D or 3D array of perl-pixel data, with the pixel data being of a particular data type (8, 16, 32bit unsigned integers, or floats). This is what data coming off a camera is, as well as what a TIFF, FITS, and XISF file are. All are bitmaps, just with different headers wrapped around that blob of binary image information. So making a dig because Ray uses the .NET Bitmap functions is a failure to understand the underpinnings of image data manipulation.

Since my name was mentioned earlier in this thread, I will say that QHY600 and ASI6200 users who use the 32bit NINA installation will run into issues with memory, quite quickly. Due to the asynchronous nature of the application which allows for a lot of things to happen in parallel, there are often multiple copies of the image data in memory at any given moment in order to satisfy the needs of the tasks that can happen during the course of an imaging sequence. These cameras produce an image that is ca. 125MB in size, so with GDI limits and 32bit process memory limits, room to maneuver can run out real fast... much faster than with the typical 8-16 megapixel images that are more the norm when we are talking about dedicated astro cams. The color versions of these 60mp cameras are now starting to hit the rear-ends of telescopes, so it'll be interesting to see what the memory conditions are like when we're talking about live unlinked stretches that require 3x125MB data arrays instead of just 1 for a monochrome/bayered image.

So, in short, these 60-odd megapixel whoppers took everyone by surprise in their requirements. The folks over at SGPro had issues, other apps had issues. We had issues with NINA, but luckily we decided from the start - and our start was fairly recent and so benefited from hindsight - that a 64bit offering would be on equal footing as a "classic" 32bit one, so getting relief to users who have these cameras usually meant a fairly simple cross-grade to a 64bit installation, provided their ASCOM drivers were up for the task (being compiled with AnyCPU.) Offering 64 bit analogs might work, but being able to do that depends on a few things - including whether there are any 3rd party libraries in use that do not offer 64 bit variants. It's not "easy", and it's certainly not something that can be changed overnight.

/dale

On May 8, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Brian Valente <bvalente@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes I realize that may solve the problem, but you mentioned binning doesn't seem to solve the problem

with a sensor that size, if binning does work, i think it supports at least bin 3 hardware so you may end up with a workable file size.

I don't know how QHY does binning (cmos binning seems to work differently) so if Bill has QHY that may not help either

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 8:52 AM Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com> wrote:
you could do a quick test now, just take a frame bin1 and a frame bin 2 and look at the file sizes
It may not be just a matter of file size. The problem is a memory allocation failure trying to download and save 3 images in memory.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Valente
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 8:42 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600

Benoit

you could do a quick test now, just take a frame bin1 and a frame bin 2 and look at the file sizes

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 8:16 AM Benoit Schillings <benoit.schillings@gmail.com> wrote:


Ray, I do have a 6200 you can borrow for a few days.

-- benoit

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 8:12 AM Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> That was the first thing I suggested to Bill when he contacted me privately via email. Bill later said he tried
that, but it didn't seem to help. That may be a sign that the camera driver may be downloading full images then
binning in software. The reason the limit is being hit is that this is happening on the PEMPro polar alignment step
that requires not one, but three images. When only a single image needs to be allocated (e.g. acquiring periodic
error data) the memory limit shouldn't be hit.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Valente
> > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 8:03 AM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> >
> > Is it possible you can just bin it x2 to reduce file size?
> >
> > short term fix?
> >
> > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 7:57 AM thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bill, please relax and be respectful. Demanding someone do this or that is not a good way to
approach
> > problems especially on an open board like this.
> > If you want to vent your anger I would suggest you send messages privately.
> >
> > Problems can be sometimes difficult to solve but solutions are more easily found when working
together.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2
<chris1011@aol.com> via
> > groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io>
> > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 10:50:10 AM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> >
> > PEMPro is not an Astro-Physics product. We did not develop with the software. I believe it belongs
to
> > another company, no?
> >
> >
> >
> > Rolando
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Long <bill@outlook.com>
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Sent: Fri, May 8, 2020 1:42 am
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> >
> >
> > Roland and Marj: It seems that Ray is not interested in fixing this problem, and would rather blame
> > Microsoft (inappropriately, and incorrectly) for this problem.
> >
> > A-P -- there is a huge problem with the new CMOS full frame cameras that are on the market.
Please help
> > Ray prioritize fixing this issue and do not listen to his false blame on Microsoft, as Microsoft's framework
is not the
> > problem, which is clearly apparent with a multitude of other software programs that work fine with the
large frames
> > produced by the camera.
> >
> > If Ray needs a friend, I would suggest he reaches out to Dale, whome has done a good job in NINA
with
> > supporting the camera, instead of blaming Microsoft.
> >
> > -Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Long <bill@outlook.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 11:09 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> >
> > Thanks for the history lesson. Fix the software and stop blaming Microsoft.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 11:07 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> >
> >
> > Bitmaps, the class in .Net Framework, is not the same as the low-level bitmaps in windows that I
think you
> > are talking about.
> >
> > And it's not 30 years old... only about 20 years old, which is why the limit was only 1GB.
> >
> > Back then 1GB was an impossible amount of graphics memory for a desktop computer. Not at all
today! :-)
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
physics.com%2Fapcc-
> >
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce7b18d28e91e424a10f008d7f3162d22%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa
> >
aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637245148877595454&amp;sdata=RCUY6FJK6oDclqzNPTfUIUtY26hSnOdOq6XLvHtu0
> > %2BA%3D&amp;reserved=0
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
> > physics.com%2Fapcc-
> >
pro&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ccf0c652e300e420bc57208d7f35f2251%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
> >
%7C1%7C0%7C637245462227232671&sdata=W5QKTOp87mNjgv3W9HgRNDbJCCZmfi%2FPu4AAGwHwlMA
> > %3D&reserved=0>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:
> >
https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccdware.com%2F&;data=02%7C
> >
01%7C%7Ce7b18d28e91e424a10f008d7f3162d22%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C
> >
637245148877595454&amp;sdata=KOiD8aiXzfwPp8Dq7Yz4372gHRqCkrroWnyNDyHHElw%3D&amp;reserved
> > =0
> >
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccdware.com%2F&data=02%7C01%
> >
7C%7Ccf0c652e300e420bc57208d7f35f2251%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63724
> > 5462227252656&sdata=fPesqSk4kGljTCi7ASQZp1KpYoMTAFVwm1CkTqXTjzg%3D&reserved=0>
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
> >
https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&;d
> >
ata=02%7C01%7C%7Ce7b18d28e91e424a10f008d7f3162d22%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1
> >
%7C0%7C637245148877595454&amp;sdata=wImqBU4%2BMfewx%2ByEQXOwGarlGaUgaKnhpdKikU9i9Sk%
> > 3D&amp;reserved=0
> >
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&data
> >
=02%7C01%7C%7Ccf0c652e300e420bc57208d7f35f2251%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7
> >
C0%7C637245462227262657&sdata=nU3pmytIcu%2BREgEGCsQXrQ2rtgCItXKOhgihR%2Ffk0n0%3D&reserve
> > d=0>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 10:58 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> > >
> > > The problem IS NOT on the .Net Framework, Ray. The camera works perfectly fine with other
software
> > that uses
> > > the same framework.
> > >
> > > Bitmaps... which PEMPro uses, should be suspect. Why the hell does PEMPro rely on bitmap
tech?
> > Thats like 30
> > > years old man!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 10:52 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > The problem is that the .NET framework cannot allocate enough memory with a camera with that
many
> > pixels.
> > >
> > > It could be fixed by Microsoft increasing the .NET Framework GDI+ memory limit above 1GB (not
likely).
> > >
> > > Or, you could use a cheap webcam instead of a 60 megapixel camera.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
physics.com%2Fapcc-
> > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
physics.com%2Fapcc->
> > >
> >
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C12f50762ffc54252cca108d7f3140a3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaa
> > >
> >
aaa%7C1%7C0%7C637245139697681529&amp;sdata=7TbKQdPBlblIyMj7LT7E7E32kEEeSGg1XMfP8JBoESs
> > > %3D&amp;reserved=0
> > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
> > > physics.com%2Fapcc-
> > >
> >
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C12f50762ffc54252cca108d7f3140a3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaa
> > >
> >
aaa%7C1%7C0%7C637245139697681529&amp;sdata=7TbKQdPBlblIyMj7LT7E7E32kEEeSGg1XMfP8JBoESs
> > > %3D&amp;reserved=0>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:
> > >
> >
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccdware.com%2F&;data=02%25
> > 7
> >
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccdware.com%2F&data=02%257>
> > >
> >
C01%7C%7C12f50762ffc54252cca108d7f3140a3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6
> > >
> >
37245139697681529&amp;sdata=HteSobGSbPXxPkKC6A4nthVHtkgCZZXVCxsB57tRyuA%3D&amp;reserved=
> > > 0
> > >
> >
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccdware.com%2F&;data=02%2
> > 57
> > >
> >
C01%7C%7C12f50762ffc54252cca108d7f3140a3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6
> > >
> >
37245139697681529&amp;sdata=HteSobGSbPXxPkKC6A4nthVHtkgCZZXVCxsB57tRyuA%3D&amp;reserved=
> > > 0>
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
> > >
> >
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&
> >
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&> ;
> > >
> >
data=02%7C01%7C%7C12f50762ffc54252cca108d7f3140a3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1
> > >
> >
%7C0%7C637245139697681529&amp;sdata=rYyjwpjolpDyG5kZ%2Fq2F2yqT6eKxWaZeBCOWVQeCAzQ%3D
> > > &amp;reserved=0
> > >
> >
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&am
> > >
> >
p;data=02%7C01%7C%7C12f50762ffc54252cca108d7f3140a3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C
> > >
> >
1%7C0%7C637245139697681529&amp;sdata=rYyjwpjolpDyG5kZ%2Fq2F2yqT6eKxWaZeBCOWVQeCAzQ%3
> > > D&amp;reserved=0>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 10:29 PM
> > > > To: ap-ug@groups.io; Astro-Physics GTO Users Group
> > > > Subject: [ap-gto] PEMPro on ASI6200 & QHY600
> > > >
> > > > Is non-functional. The frames even binned 4x4 do not work.
> > > >
> > > > The software is broken and a LOT of people depend on this to work. We need immediate fixes!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >
> > Brian Valente
> > portfolio brianvalentephotography.com <http://brianvalentephotography.com>
> >
>
>
>
>







--

Brian



Brian Valente
portfolio brianvalentephotography.com <http://brianvalentephotography.com>





--
Brian



Brian Valente
portfolio brianvalentephotography.com

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